Hannah Otto Digs Deep on Mauna Kea

Hannah Otto's trips to Hawaii are different than your trips to Hawaii. Hannah Otto took her went to the big island to chase Mauna Kea FKT, but it almost didn't happen. She talks pacing, fueling at 100g+ carbs/hour, battling a relentless headwind, and the mental shift that turned a potential disaster into the biggest margin of her FKT career.

Below is the transcript of our conversation, edited for clarity:

Hello and welcome to the First Endurance Podcast, where we are once again talking about Mauna Kea. My guest today is Hannah Otto, professional mountain bike and gravel racer, current XC Marathon National Champion, and newly-minted FKT/QOM on the Mauna Kea climb, putting nearly 30 minutes into the previous fastest time. Hannah, welcome.

Thank you; thanks for having me, I'm excited to talk about this.

Me, too. So as I mentioned in the intro, you wear a lot of hats, and you do a lot of racing between UCI-level MTB and Life Time Grand Prix, which is obviously a big logistical lift. So you could be forgiven for saying that you're a little too busy to go rip a five-plus-hour climb in Hawaii during your offseason. So I'm just wondering what the impetus for undertaking this challenge was, because it's also not the first time that you've done it. In fact, it seems like you do something similar every offseason: you did Kokopelli, right, and you did White Rim, and Mauna Kea this year. So are these things that you've been thinking about for a long time, sort of bucket list items, do they function as a big goal to motivate and direct your winter training, or is it something else entirely?

This is such a great question, and I feel like I could take it so many different ways because there's a lot of reasons I do these attempts. You know, on the simplest side, I love it. I think it's so much fun. And I think, you know, people do ask that a lot. “You do so many things, why add one more thing?”  Because I would be lying if I was like, yeah, you just add it and it's super simple. No, this is very complicated. It takes a lot of work. It's a tremendous amount of effort, physically, mentally, emotionally. But to me, it's so worth it, because in some ways it feels like despite how much work it is, it's the simplest form of riding your bike. To me, there's something so pure about the FKT, QOM, whatever you want to call it, style effort that just keeps bringing me back. It's a beautiful way for me to remember over and over that ultimately the reason I ride my bike and race my bike is to see what's possible for me. And I love racing because other people allow me to expand those parameters. They help push me. But going out on my own to do my own effort, I also learn more about myself in those moments of solitude, of quiet. And it's so fun to research, as well. You asked if this is something that I have thought about for a long time, and yes, I have, and I already know the next two or three of these that I want to do. And I've known this one for the last two or three years as well. And as cheesy as it sounds, it really is a love story for me because it's like this slow courtship with each FKT as I sit and Google what's the time, and what's the weather, and when do I go, and all of a sudden every tab on my computer is reading Mauna Kea, Mauna Kea, Mauna Kea, and that's when I'm like yeah, okay, I'm in love, and it's time to do this.

That's a perfect segue into the next question because I'm sort of wondering, I said prep, but I could put it as you did, which is what does that courtship look like in terms of the research you're doing? What does that look like? How are you prepping from a physical standpoint, or for things like heat or altitude in the case of this effort?

Yeah, it’s multifaceted, a little bit complicated, but also very simple. Like you said, I wear a lot of hats. I'm doing a lot of different things. And so I don't have the ability, most of the time, to perfectly prep for a singular attempt. I'm counting on my other training and my other efforts throughout the season to help me be able to do these types of things. That's part of what I do take into account when I pick these efforts is, “is it somewhat within my range of abilities? And also, does it take me just far enough outside of my comfort zone?” Both of those things have to meet in order for me to really fall in love. So like for the Kokopelli attempt, that was longer than anything I was used to. This one, I don't race on the road. Like I have virtually never raced on the road. So getting ready for a road bike FKT was a really unique experience for me. So from the training aspect, I'm counting on things like my full season of heat training, altitude acclimation, and endurance riding to pull me through the effort. Most of my unique and specific preparation for these attempts is going to come down to the logistics. I analyze every possible nook and cranny of these attempts, from the weather to the wind direction. And Phil had a video already that he had done on this, so I'm zooming in on as much as I can on his YouTube. What is that gravel like? Trying to figure out all of those unique things and then, you know, making sure that my equipment and my strategy is really honed to the attempt.

Right. And you can’t do too much specific prep because you were doing some XC stuff in Spain not long after this, correct?

A few months, yeah. I did this at the end of October and then I started my race season again at the very beginning of February. So this effort was the very end of my season. I actually went straight from the Grand Prix finale in Arkansas straight to Hawaii to do this, and then came home and, you know, collapsed on the ground going, oh my gosh, we're done.

So, a vacation, but also totally not a vacation.

Yeah, exactly. So far with these FKTs, we've enjoyed keeping them a secret until we launch. And so this one, the Moab ones were a little easier to play off, whereas this one felt a little bit harder trying to spin a Hawaii trip into a vacation that was very much not a vacation at the end of the season.

So this is a crazy effort anyway, and you obviously have a full race season under your belt, which could work against you in certain ways if you're exhausted from the season, but it also is good because you're kind of going into it with a certain race level of sharpness that maybe you don't need to build through training. But this climb is still unlike anything you're doing over the course of the race season. It's 55 miles, it's almost 14,000 feet of climbing. The weather is different basically each hour of the climb itself, not to mention the weather being different from the continental states. Do you have an intentional pacing strategy? You mentioned when we were talking before we recorded that most of that 30-minute gap you made on the previous record was gained in the last maybe one or two hours of the climb, which to me seems not coincidental. I mean, that's where the terrain gets more into your sort of expertise. You get some of that deeper sand, steeper gradients, it gets more techie. Was that a specific designed pacing strategy to kind of like stay right on the effort and then, you know, dump it out as the terrain gets more suited to you, or were you running into some adversity in the first few hours where you were like, I actually have a lot of ground to make up here when it gets hardest.

Yeah, this was a big uh-oh, actually. I mean, uh-ohs are so hard. They are so emotionally brutal when you're out there, but afterwards it makes for the best lessons. But this is where I feel like these FKTs really do come down to heart, because it's so easy to give up. You're not in a race. No one is pushing you, you're out there and you're looking at a clock, and at a certain point you're going, “this isn't adding up anymore. I'm not gonna do it.” And that was a point that I hit out there. I did have a super specific pacing strategy; over the years doing this, my coach has, my gosh, I don't know how he manages to, but all of these FKTs he's come down to within 10 watts of the final time, which is pretty crazy when you're thinking about super technical terrain, 12-plus hours of terrain, or Mauna Kea, where you have massive elevation differences. So I trust him with every pedal stroke to get this pacing right. And I did hit that pacing. Like we said, for the first 40 miles you have about 7,000 feet, and then for the last 15 miles you have another 7,000 feet. So it gets wildly steep, and in those first 40 miles I was perfectly on pacing strategy or maybe even a little bit ahead, but I was bleeding time. At about mile 20, I was six minutes up on the record, but by the time I made that corner at mile 40, I was three minutes behind. I had a massive headwind that just seemed to keep getting harder all day. And so even though I was trying to make up for it by slowly creeping the watts up, I knew I had to be careful. I couldn't just abandon the plan. I have the hardest part ahead of me. Yet I'm watching myself bleed time. And I went from feeling extremely confident that if I do these numbers, I will get the attempt. This is my goal time. I got it. Here we go. When I made that left-hand turn for those last 15 miles, I remember thinking, “I have come all the way here. I have told everybody I can do this. I have flown a film crew out to help showcase the success. And now I don't even know if I can do this.” And that was a really scary moment, but it was also a really powerful thing to have to overcome and to decide that even though I don't know if I can do this, I'm willing to try anyway. And so pushing into that unknown, I think, was the biggest victory that I had on this mountain.

For sure. I mean, there's probably a sort of freedom in that, too, like I might be in the process of losing it all here, but I'm here so I might as well just send it and see where it goes. Was the headwind a surprise to you? When I talked to Phil, he was there for a full week and kind of accounted for the fact that the wind is pretty unpredictable in Hawaii. And so it may be the case that, you know, he goes out and the visitor center is closed. Maybe due to wind, but he just couldn't get to the top the first time he tried it. Did you have a plan like that or were you like logistically pretty much honed in on one day that this was gonna have to happen?

This was tricky. From the time we touched down to the time we were leaving, we had a week. So I did have a week to play with, but keep in mind, I had just raced a hundred miles. And so I didn't want to do it in the first couple of days that I got there.I wanted to look at the climb. I wanted to recover from the hundred km race and then the Big Sugar race that I had just done for the Life Time Grand Prix finale. And all of that quickly changed as well, because we were planning on doing it in the latter half of that week, but when we went up to scout at the visitor center, the rangers up there told us two really important things. They told us one, the wind is coming. They said the further we pushed it back, the windier it was going to get. And then secondly, they told us that they grade that gravel road twice a week. And right after they grade it, it's the loosest. And so even though you have to walk a little bit anyways, you would virtually be walking the whole four miles, is at least what they told me. And so I needed to navigate this biweekly grading. I needed to go as soon as possible before the wind picked up. And so we had to move the attempt forward very quickly. That was the first day we were scouting on the way home, driving back to the Airbnb. So we said, “okay, we're doing it tomorrow.” So very quickly we had to, you know, get all the gear together, get the plan together, change the mindset. We're going tomorrow. It doesn't matter if you're recovered, you're doing this anyway. And so, yeah, so a little bit of all of the above. I knew it would be a little bit windy. I didn't know it would be quite that windy. Then you're also out there thinking as you're bleeding time, well, I moved it forward. What if they were wrong? What if it's better in two days? Maybe I should have waited two days for the original day I planned on doing it. I'm really pleased to say that two days later, the visitor center was closed. The top was closed. So we nailed the timing. Thank goodness. But that's one of the natures of this climb and all these FKTs, which is so crazy because one of the really comforting things to me when we race is that everyone has the same conditions. It's hard for everyone, right? It's cold? Everyone's cold. It's hot? Everyone's hot. It's sandy? Everyone's time is slower. That is not true in these FKTs. And so you have to get your mind around that feeling of “woe is me,” and just say, “this is the day I picked and I'm doing it.” Because the second you give yourself an out, you can't afford that. And so for me, that's something I always tell the crew when I start is like, once I start this, I am committed. There is no, it was a bad day, or it was too hard. And I mean, I'm human, so I have those thoughts, but I don't allow myself to consider quitting once I start because it's in my mind, it's a race, and this is the day the race happens on.

Right, yeah, I'm interested in that process. I mean, you've touched on it, but I don't know if you can go into any more detail because it strikes me as, in addition to the genetic advantages and fitness advantages that elite athletes have over the rest of us, something that doesn't get talked about as much is probably that they also confront and overcome adversity in an elite way as well. So what does that process look like for you? I mean, do you have certain mental or psychological cues that you can use to get yourself into that mindset of we're doing it, I'm turning off my brain, it's time to go?

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm just gonna keep using this word, it's so multifaceted. I do work with a sports psychologist and she gives me really actionable things that I can work on. You know, things like when things start to feel like they’re unraveling, you want to focus on the things you have control over. So when my mind is starting to go, oh my gosh, I can't beat this wind, maybe I'm focusing on my cadence, you know, maybe I'm shifting, maybe I'm eating, which is great for the First Endurance podcast because that's actually a big one I always go to: the one thing I can always control is my nutrition. So sometimes when things are unraveling, I just eat something as a way to reset. But then there's the experience, you know, I've been racing for a really long time at this point, and that is something that I think these FKTs have also gifted me. So I think the more you go to this place, you gain a new understanding of what you're capable of. And the further you keep pushing that, it doesn't become easier, but it does at the same time, because you start to compare everything to that moment. And so that was something that the Kokopelli gifted me when I had, I mean, that was my hardest day ever on a bike. And so in these moments, like on Mauna Kea, I can go back to that and I can say, this is not as hard as that, so I have more. It doesn't feel like I have more, but I know I have it somewhere and it's my job to find it and to find it now. And so those are some of the things I'm thinking about out there is, you know, where is this extra gear? Because I've seen it before and I have to find it now.

Yeah, and I mean, not easier, as you said, but you at least have the knowledge that it's possible because you've done it before. Even when you won Leadville, you were coming off an injury, right? And I've had moments like this, not even with regard to cycling, but growing up playing other sports, sometimes the days you feel like, yeah, nothing, I'm pitching and in the bullpen I'm not throwing any strikes and nothing feels right, those sometimes are the days that end up being the best because you just come into it with a different mindset.

Exactly. I think, you know, we talk a lot to younger athletes or to new athletes about trying to gain confidence, right? Like you just need to be confident, gain that confidence. And confidence is, it's so fleeting and non-tangible in so many ways, but confidence comes from execution, and execution IS tangible. And so we gain confidence from the things that we've previously executed. Whether it's training, whether it's racing, and so exactly what you're talking about is when everything's going awry, when you feel like, man, this is just not my day. With that experience comes the ability to look back and say, but I did it that time when it wasn't my day. I did it that time when I felt terrible. I did that workout and hit these numbers. And all of a sudden the data adds up to intellectualize it into your brain. And all of a sudden your brain hits this green light where it's like, wait, okay, I'll let this happen because you have proven it to me. I agree. Let's go.

Yeah, it's like, hey, we actually are doing it as it turns out. This is great. You mentioned the fueling aspect of it, and that to me, especially given that I didn't know if this was a pacing strategy or an uh-oh, especially given that it was an uh-oh, getting that fueling right for the first four-ish hours of this effort would really allow your body to follow your mind once you gave yourself permission to feel like this is possible.  Once you do that, you still need to have the fuel on board to actually physically make it happen. So what did the fueling look like in this effort and how big a role do you think it played in those final couple hours?

Yeah, I think it's absolutely massive.I think fueling is one of the number one elements to this FKT, not just because of the length, but because of how it's set up. Like you're saying, those last couple hours, they're the most important. And so you really have to stack the fueling to stay strong in those last couple hours, but also because as you start to go up in the elevation, and as you hit 20-plus gradients, and as you start walking your bike on the gravel, and as you start hitting 40 RPMs, it does become harder to fuel. Whether or not you're able to do it is maybe a personal thing, but I think everyone can agree that it becomes harder. So you need to enter into those last 15 miles as fully topped off as possible. For me, that's something that I'm really happy about and grateful for in this attempt was, like you said, I had to nail that fueling in the first few hours. For me, in an attempt like this, I'm aiming for about 100 grams of carbs per hour. I did this supported, so basically what we decided was every hour I would get a new bottle and we would attach some Liquid Shots to that bottle. I was basically rotating out the fuel each hour and that was helping me stay really accountable because I could also see, oops, this hour I have one that I haven't eaten. Got to catch up. But I think not only is it important, I think this is a really great lesson that I hear as a coach as well, more often than not when everything starts to hit the fan, instead of doubling down on fueling, a lot of the time people make the mistake of letting that fall away too, because you're thinking, my gosh, I'm not doing well enough. What's even the point? Like it's this weird unconscious feeling of like, I'm not doing well enough, so why even bother with the fueling? But it should be the opposite. What is my body doing? Like maybe it needs more help. So I had to really continue to intellectualize the feeling of I need this, stay on it, it matters, it will count, it will come back to help. And like you're saying, it absolutely did in those last couple hours.

100%. Do you go all Liquid Shot on this and just keep water in the bottles or are you mixing both during each hour?

I'm a huge Liquid Shot person, but I typically do the EFS Pro in every other bottle in a small amount. So first bottle water, second bottle two scoops EFS Pro, water, and I go back and forth. I think that helps me get the volume of water I need, but also helps supplement some of those carbs and electrolytes, as well. That was a very quick change that I made at the bottom. We had agreed that every hour I was going to get a bottle, but I started that first hour and went, wow, it's really hot in Hawaii. I'm going to go ahead and need an extra one, please. And we sort of adjusted that to maybe around 45 minutes pretty quick in those early hours.

Yeah, and I mean that just speaks to what we were talking about previously, that it's a skill in its own right to be able to quickly pivot away from your plan when you see that it might not be as optimal as you thought it would be. So I feel like maybe I know the answer to this next question based on what we've talked about, but what would you say is the most challenging aspect of the climb that no one talks about?

My gosh, that no one talks about?

Or maybe that fewer people talk about, like you always hear about how loose the gravel is at the top, how steep it is, the elevation, the altitude, but are there underrated aspects of this that are kind of like, you spend all your time preparing for the biggies, but you don't realize that this is also gonna happen.

Yeah, like you said, I mean, I think the gravel is probably the most talked about, but does deserve that level of respect. But if you're talking about underrated, rarely talked about aspects, I would say the wind and the consistency. Because you do focus so hard on, at the top, it's going to be so steep. I'm going to be out of the saddle. I'm going to be walking. Honestly, at that point, most people will probably welcome the walking because you're at least changing positions. In the first 40 miles, it's relatively the same gradient the whole time. Like I said, it could be very windy. Don't discount that. And you are just locked into one position. The only reason your body moves is if you decide to move it.

Right.

So moving, for example, from the hoods to the drops, that was a move I was doing because I just needed some movement. But for the average person going and doing it, that probably is a big thing because rarely anywhere else in the world do you stay on the pedals that long. You have some sort of coasting or changing of position or turns. With this, there's really no reason to ever stop pedaling, which is its own challenge.

Yeah, I mean, it shows sort of the power of context on your mental state because anywhere else if you're talking about getting 7,000 feet of climb in 40 miles, that's a hard climb. That's a proper climb on its own. That's the easy part of this climb. That's where I need to hold something back here because it's not so steep. I'll try and get super aero. But I mean, you're doing it on, you're on a 5 % climb for four hours and that's supposedly the easy part.

Yeah, exactly, and I was so grateful for that turn because of the wind and because I knew, okay, here we go, it's do or die now. And maybe that mindset actually helped me, because before the attempt, the mindset for that corner that I was preparing for was, my gosh, we're just starting. Because that could easily be how it feels. You're hours deep in this effort, but you make that turn and it just kicks up and you can see the climb so far ahead, and it does feel like a restart, like here you go again, but you're already hours into this effort. And so it easily could be a feeling of my gosh, it just never ends. So I mean, again, like it just makes me smile because I feel like, like I said, maybe it was a blessing for me that I got to have that turn and have such a different emotional confrontation of that moment in the climb. It feels like a reminder that it is what you make it. It's all about your perception. Like out there, perception is everything, even about how you speak to yourself, I'm having a great day or I'm not doing good enough. The amount of times that I have told myself one of those stories when the effort was relatively the same, it changes everything. You might as well be positive.

Absolutely. When you make the turn, having never done the climb, are you getting a tailwind there or are you just changing it to more of a head crosswind? Like what kind of turn are we talking about?

You become more sheltered, basically. So you're not really getting a tailwind, but all of a sudden it becomes more still. And so it was a total relief of being able to hear my thoughts again. I'm sure most people who ride bikes know that feeling when it's been a ripping headwind through your ears and then you make a turn and get that quiet.

I grew up riding in Iowa, so every single training ride was setting out into the headwind, even though it's terrible, because you know you get that beautiful moment when you flip and start coming home and all of a sudden it's quiet and you're going 28 miles an hour and doing 200 watts. Do you think you made any mistakes fueling or equipment or pacing wise? 

That's a really good question. I don't think I made any big mistakes. Like, I'm very happy with the effort that I made, and I think if I did it again, I would keep everything pretty much exactly the same and just try and go faster, go harder, you know, hope for a better wind, of course. But I won't say that. I'll put it on myself. You know, be stronger.

Hope for a better week.

Yeah.

Is it ever tailwind, by the way, or is the wind always headwind on Mauna Kea?

It's my understanding that it shifts, but like I said, I was only there a week. So I only got to see one type of element, but it is crazy. Even in the week we were there, the top, cause the top is cold. You know, you start in 80 degrees and you end in 30. We were down at the bottom in short sleeves burning up and at the top in puffy jackets. So I'm really happy with my effort. I do think that anyone watching the film who wants to go try this, the average person, the things that I would point to my setup and maybe recommend slightly differently is, you know, the last 15 miles are really hard. So switching to a gravel bike or a mountain bike not only would probably make that gravel a lot easier for you, but it would also probably give you a much easier gear that might be a little more enjoyable.

Which you did not do, right? You stayed on the road bike.

Yeah, I decided to stay on the road bike, and that I think is still kind of, you know, it's 50-50. I think Phil switched, didn't he? 

Well, the first time he did it a couple years ago, he did not. Then the guy who took his KOM did switch, but emailed him or texted him beforehand to ask if that was kosher. And he said, yeah, go for it, and I'll just switch next time and try to beat you.

Yeah, and I do think in this type of effort, supported is supported, right? So you can really make any adjustments you want out there. For some reason, for me, I was really headstrong about wanting to prove you can do this whole thing on one bike. We did actually have some stuff in the car for if it was really bad. If I was really struggling, we did have mountain bike shoes and a different set of wheels, a different bike that I could switch to, but my goal was to not switch. The biggest concern was that I was on road shoes, so the more I walked, the more there was a risk of potentially breaking a cleat. I think for the average person, for safety purposes and in terms of enjoying the climb, switching would probably be optimal, but I also wanted to show that hey, if you're going to Hawaii and you want to do this, you don't have to bring two bikes. Just come and enjoy it!

Right. How much walking did you have to do in that gravel section? Phil was adamant that there is no way, on a road bike, you're getting up that whole thing, and there were people who disagreed, but he said I just don't think it's possible, depending on the day, to ride the whole thing on a road bike.

Yeah, it would be pretty tough. When I pre-rode that section, because that was really one of the only sections I pre-rode, I was able to ride most of it, just like a couple short sections, like it would pitch up and maybe I'd have to walk like 10 or 20 feet, but that was kind of going all over the road to find the best gravel, as many of us do.

Mm-hmm.

In the attempt, the ranger actually was out there and saw me going and was very adamant that I stay on the right side of the road, which is totally fair and safe. And I fully respect that. In the moment, you're like, but it's harder packed over there, please. So I had to walk a little bit more during the attempt than I planned. But I would say it still came out to less than half a mile of walking.

Yeah, I figured if anybody was going to prove him wrong, it would be you, given that your background and your expertise is in these long mountain bike races, and increasingly, it seems to me like the Life Time stuff gets closer and closer to mountain bike every year.

Yeah, and it was so funny because I guess I had told Clayton more about the walking, but I guess I hadn't quite emphasized the amount of walking that was needed to the crew. So again, just some fun BTS, when I first stopped and had to put a foot down, the whole film crew gasped because they were like–

It's over!

Exactly, it's over. That's what one of them said was like, my gosh, it's over. She's falling apart. And Clayton was like, no guys, this was planned. We're all good. Which I actually, I just love that, because the gasp is such an honest, immediate reaction that really shows how invested everyone is, that they are all very closely watching and monitoring, you know, not only my time, but my body language, my face, my actions, how is she feeling? Is she gonna do it?

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. It's fun to know that it's such a team accomplishment at the end of the day, and that everybody's basically as invested in this as you are.

Big time. And that's a piece that, you know, we try really hard in these films to show that, but it's hard to always point the camera in multiple directions. But at the top of this climb, having gone through all that, you know, feeling like I almost lost it, pulling it back, then ending up beating it by a significant margin and going through that wave of emotions, we were all basically in tears at the top. Not just me, not just Clayton, but the film crew. And I've been lucky enough that the same people have filmed all four of these FKTs now. So they've seen me ride in a hundred degrees. They've seen me ride in 17 degrees. They've seen me ride at 14,000 feet. They've seen me go through so much that, gosh, it's just so special. I feel like they know me so well. They know, like I was saying, they know that look on my face when it's going well, when it's not going well. Exactly.

And they have the proper perspective for it too, just how challenging it was, because they know you and know your abilities. That's all I've got. I really appreciate you sitting down to talk with us. It was really fascinating to get into the mindset of being able to a take on a challenge this difficult. Even if everything goes right, it's going to be extremely difficult, but especially when you encounter adversity, hearing how you're able to push through that in the way that you can reframe things and get the most out of yourself was really cool to hear, so thank you so much. I know you know what's coming next and I know you won't tell us, so whatever it is, best of luck with whatever comes next winter!

Thanks so much and I hope we can chat again about it.

Yeah, appreciate it. Take care.